fun facts about the atakapa tribefun facts about the atakapa tribe

https://www.tshaonline.org, https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/atakapa-indians. Learn Tonkawa facts for kids. The name means The People. First came Panfilo de Narvaez in 1528 and then Hernando de Soto in 1543. TheTsikip,Appalousa (Opelousa),Opelousas Band(Blackleg) orHeron Band, painted their lower legs and feetblackduring mourning ceremonies, mimicking the long black legs of theheron. Before America was the United States of America it was populated by various Native American tribes. Louisiana coast. Numbers of us have become professionals and individuals serving our country in positions of honor, such as President Carters Ambassador to Kenya and the Seychelles, Dr. Wilbert LeMelle of New Iberia, LA and Alex Boudreaux of Lake Charles, who served as a Tuskogee Airman during WW II. The byway travels through flat land and along the riverbanks originally inhabited by the Atakapa and Coushatta Indians. Every dollar helps. They were organized as follows. Related. Atakapa (/tkp, -p/, natively Yukhiti) is an extinct language isolate native to southwestern Louisiana and nearby coastal eastern Texas. In winters, they moved inland and lived in villages of houses made of pole and thatch. Native Americans First Owners of America, Byways & Historic Trails Great Drives in America, Soldiers and Officers in American History. google_ad_client = "pub-8872632675285158"; Like I said, most of the people are completely unaware that this area had any Natives or what the culture was. [1], In 1703, Jean-Baptiste Le Moyne, the French governor of La Louisiane, sent three men to explore the Gulf Coast west of the Mississippi River. Texas And S.W. This photograph is part of the collection entitled: Rescuing Texas History, 2007 and was provided by the Heritage House Museum to The Portal to Texas History , a digital repository hosted by the UNT Libraries . One group of survivors met the Karankawa, while the other probably landed on Galveston Island. By 1719, they had obtained horses and hunted bison from horseback. He had sexual relations with his daughter-in-law that produced . The tribal sisters symbol is depicted as two women surrounded by a circle. They often remained living in the same general area, but were sometimes forced to move to locations where food was most abundant. He told me that his name was Joseph; but I did not learn from what part of Europe he came. The rivers near their villages provided fish and they also gathered wild plant foods. A French explorer, Francois Simars de Bellisle, lived among the Atakapa from 1719 to 1721. Learn how your comment data is processed. Atakapa Indian Fact Sheet. [37] They also refer to themselves as the Atakapa-Ishak Nation and met en masse on October 28, 2006. We rely on the generosity of our readers who believe that this work is important. They used dugout canoes to navigate the bayous and close to shore, but did not venture far into the ocean. Its like theyre wiping us out. Other Ishak lived on the upper coast of the Gulfs northwestern crescent at what is now Southeast Texas and Southwest Louisiana. Survivors joined the Caddo, Koasati, and other surrounding tribes, although some culturally distinct Atakapan people survived into the 20th century. Atakapa-Ishak descendents show a wide range of complexions which is attributed to the genes for light or brown complexions. French Jesuit missionaries urged the Atakapa to end this practice. Indian jewelry Texas and S.W. A teacher walks into the Classroom and says If only Yesterday was Tomorrow Today would have been a Saturday Which Day did the Teacher make this Statement? Promotional materials distributed by your outlet, including all social media work, must include cites for the Observer and our reporter. The seventh nation they encountered were the Atakapa, who captured and cannibalized one member of their party. The term colored has clouded our racial identity. Louisiana - Listing of Tribes and Totems, "The Bidai, Tribe of Intrigue. If you want to see Gulf Coast culture, you need to look at some of the coastal villages, which really didnt always have that much contact with Europeans. Much of the history of the Atakapa Indians has been lost to time. They processed the meats, bones and skins to prepare food for storage, as well as to make clothing, tent covers, tools, sewing materials, arrow cases, bridles and rigging for horses, and other necessary items for their survival. Handbook of Texas Online, There is a group of people who self-identify as being descendants of the Atakapa who are currently in the process of applying for federal recognition as a Native American tribe ("Atakapa-Ishak Nation"). The French referred to them as les sauvages. Denetclaw was the Indigenous Affairs reporter for the Texas Observer. Prior to the Europeans arriving, American Indians used wood, shells, and bone to make beads to decorate their clothing and make jewelry. 18731925) of Lake Charles, Louisiana, was noted as a fluent Atakapa speaker. As part of the Texas Observers land acknowledgement process, we are collaborating with tribal representatives to map their homelands and significant places in Texas, on their own terms. google_ad_width = 728; Some culturally distinct Atakapan descendants survived into the early 20th century. Tunica ancestors were first [] isolate language group, intermarried with. The Atakapa people, also spelled Attakapa, Attakapas, Attacapa, called themselves the Ishak, pronounced "ee-SHAK," which meant "The People.". According to the U.S. Census Bureau, there are about 4.5 million Native Americans and Alaska Natives in the United States today. In 1541 explorer Hernando de Soto claimed the territory for Spain. Yuk'hiti ishak, own name. It is believed that the Atakapans or Atakapas practiced A few have applied already. You can chip in for as little as 99 cents a month. Meat was served to my entire detachment; and during the time of about six hours that I remained with this man, I learned that he was a European; that he had been aJesuit; and that having gone into Mexico, these people had chosen him as their chief. He informed me that the name Atakapas, which means eaters of men, had been given to this nation by the Spaniards because every time they caught one of them, they would kill him, but that they did not eat them; that they acted in this way toward this nation to avenge their ancestors for the torture that they made them endure when they had come to take possession of Mexico; that if some Englishmen or Frenchmen happened to be lost in this bay region, the Atakapas welcomed them with kindness, would give them hospitality; and if they did not wish to remain with them they had them taken to the Akancas, from where they could easily go to New Orleans. Apache women gathered seeds, nuts and fruit. Her grandparents were born and raised in the Big Thicket. [24] The practice of cannibalism likely had a religious, ritualistic basis. Texas and S.W. The Atakpa Indians were a loose federation. The Choctaw used the name Atakapa. A description of the Atakapa Indians discussing their language, appearance, homes, food, occupations and belief systems. The only way to get back there is by boat, and there was no good reason anybody wanted to go back there because there was nothing but a bunch of Indians and alligators. In discussing the Indians of the Southern portion of the United States it is strange that some of the first Indians to meet the Euro-Americans are barely mention in the context of Indian history. [21], The first European contact with the Atakapa may have been in 1528 by survivors of the Spanish Pnfilo de Narvez expedition. Bear Creek mound stood at the headwaters of Buffalo Bayou, which runs through downtown Houston. Most of us were out [of hiding] by the 1950s, but it was still very rough. . . Soon many tribes began to dress more alike. A French explorer, Francois Simars de Bellisle, lived among the Atakapa from 1719 to 1721. Disease mostly destroyed them, but other factors were poverty and other tribes. We welcome support from anyone to help us on this long journey. Customarily, a father would rename himself at the birth of his first son or if the son became famous. The Atakapa /tkp, -p/[1][2] or Atacapa were an indigenous people of the Southeastern Woodlands, who spoke the Atakapa language and historically lived along the Gulf of Mexico in what is now Texas and Louisiana. Houston was incorporated as a city on June 5, 1837. Theres other clans in Louisiana but theyre Eastern Atakapa. He informed me that the name Atakapas, which means eaters of men, had been given to this nation by theSpaniardsbecause every time they caught one of them, they would roast him alive, but that they did not eat them; that they acted in this way toward this nation to avenge their ancestors for the torture that they made them endure when they had come to take possession ofMexico; that if some Englishmen or Frenchmen happened to be lost in this bay region, the Atakapas welcomed them with kindness, would give them hospitality; and if they did not wish to remain with them they had them taken to theAkancas, from where they could easily go toNew Orleans. June 6, 2011. What is the order to least to greatest or the numbers 500g 50kg 5000mg. How did the Atakapa Ishak people come to live in the land currently known as Texas and can you talk about the sites that are listed on the map? The Yakama tribe lived in pit houses in the winter and tule-mat lodges or tepees in the summer. Wampanoag Indians Comparison of the Tunica, Chitimacha & Atakapa Languages, Historic Indian Tribes of Louisiana: From 1542 to the Present, Indian Tribes of the Lower Mississippi Valley, Atakapa Woman: A Louisiana tale of courage, Texas' Atakapa tribe seeking federal designation, Louisiana Tribe Fights To Preserve Their Ancestral Village. The Atakapa (Attakapa, Attacapa) Indians, including such subgroups as the Akokisas and Deadoses, occupied the coastal and bayou areas of southwestern Louisiana and southeastern Texas until the early 1800s. Free shipping. They were most commonly encountered around Galveston Bay. Each clan has a clan house and we have ceremonies at specific times of the year. Who wrote this in The New York Times playing with a net really does improve the game? The top of that mound was the place of refuge to which people went in times of floods or hurricanes. TheOtse,Teche Band, orSnake Bandlived on the prairies and coastal marshes in theMermentau Riverwatershed, along theBayou Nezpique,Bayou des Cannes, andBayou Plaquemine Brule, containing the freshwaterGrandand White lakes, and aroundSt. Martinvilleon Bayou Teche in present-daySt. Martin,Lafayette,St. Landry,St. Mary,AcadiaandEvangelineparishes in southernLouisiana. In prehistoric times we Ishak divided into two populations known to this day as, "The Sunrise People . How many lines of symmetry does a yield sign have? They talk to us about preservation, but they never do. The alligator was important to them, for it provided meat, oil, and hides. They had occupied the area between Atchafalaya River and Bayou Nezpique (Attakapas Territory). google_ad_slot = "7815442998"; The Atakapa tribe did consume human flesh, especially at large feasts. Plaquemine, as in Bayou Plaquemine Brle and Plaquemines Parish, is derived from the Atakapa word pikamin, meaning "persimmon". Texas Observer: Do you prefer to be called Akokisa, Hikike Ishak, or Atakapa Ishak? We, the Atakapa-Ishak (uh-TAK-uh-paw ee-SHAK), are a Southwest Louisiana/Southeast Texas tribe of ancient Indians who lived in the Gulf of Mexicos northwestern crescent and called ourselves Ishak. Who lived in Louisiana before explorers arrived? John R. Swanton in 1919 proposed a Tunican language family that would include Atakapa, Tunica, and Chitimacha. It was dusk, and her 10-year-old son was not yet home. The famous explorers and Spanish Conquistadors from Europe adopted the pronunciation of their name from the nearby Choctaw tribe. This page was last edited on 13 December 2022, at 03:57. Bidai means brush and that area is really essentially a jungle. Our heritage is rich and diversified and one of which to be proud. September 3, 2021, 8:00 AM, CDT. I then made them all move forward, and I sent ahead a subordinate chief to ascertain what nation these savages belonged to, and what would be their intentions toward us. Protests to remove racist statues and iconography are part of a larger effort to reframe Texas history. As colonizers entered the homelands of the Ishak, they moved into the deep swamps of east Texas and Louisiana where giant Cypress trees reigned over the muddy, marshy landscape. Return to our map of Southeast Indians Survivors generally joined the Caddo, Koasati, and other neighboring nations, although they kept some traditions. For more information about the Atakapa-Ishak visit our wikipedia entry: antabuse buy online without prescription uk, Greetings From Principal Chief Crying Eagle, Shawn Papillion, Shaman of The Atakapa Ishak Tribe, Tammy Landry Anders, Eagle Band Council Member, Shimeka Bass, Red Bird Band Council Member, Jeffery U. Darensbourg, Alligator Band Council Member, Veronique Cimpson-Zuniga, Herron Band Council Member, Stephanie Colligan, Panther Band Council Member, Please Open: Atakapa-Ishak Nation Member Form For Department Of Interior. What are facts about the atakapa tribes? He offered food and drink for my warriors which I accepted, while expressing to him my gratitude. Atakapa Indian Language ( Atakapa -Ishak) Language: Atakapa is a Gulf language, once spoken along the Louisiana and East Texas . We used to have a dance ground that people knew about, but we had threats of people shooting it up. Although the people were decimated by infectious disease after European contact and declined as a people, survivors joined other nations. History of the Coushatta Tribe in Louisiana. Some Ishak lived on the south coast of what is now Texas, down to Matagorda Bay. The Spanish responded to the French presence on the Texas coast by establishing a series of missions along the San Gabriel River. Swanton and Gatschet associated the Atakapas with the Tunican Indians of the lower Mississippi River. The Atakapa-Ishak of today are working diligently on bringing the divided populations of Sunrise and Sunset people together as one unified nation. Choctaw people used the term Atakapa, which was adopted by European settlers adopted the term. The first European contact with the Atakapa may have been in 1528 by survivors of the Spanish Pnfilo de Narvez expedition. Indian languages They let us know we were not welcome. Who were they, Really? Theres a lot of Choctaw in this area and a lot of Cherokee. Included notes and a bibliography. He spoke French rather well. It will consist of a bike trail connecting downtown areas along the bayous Vermilion and Teche, which are now accessible only by foot or boat.[40][41]. By 1719, the Atakapan had obtained horses and were hunting bison from horseback. skirts made of deerskin or woven fiber. In 1703, Jean-Baptiste Le Moyne, the French governor of Louisiana, sent three men to explore the coast west of the Mississippi River. He offered food and drink for my warriors which I accepted, while expressing to him my gratitude. And [land developers] keep destroying our mounds and other sacred places. I mean, our mounds are very sacred to us, but every time they become aware of one somehow it manages to get bulldozed. Within less than 70 years the tribe was extinct. The language became extinct in the early 20th century. They used poisons to catch fish, caught flounder by torchlight, and speared alligators in the eye. The Atakapa-Ishak are not extinct, as some historians once thought, and our people have been honored in many ways. The Lewis and Clark expedition encountered the Plateau Yakama tribe during their explorations in 1806. Published by the Texas State Historical Association. Back to Native American websites for kids There were one hundred and eighty [180] of them of both sexes, busy, as we suspected, smoke-drying meat. If you change your mind, you can easily unsubscribe. The practice of cannibalism likely had a religious, ritualistic basis. They were one of the . Today the fish are all gone. This item is a fragmentary list of Atakapa terms with English equivalents, recorded near Lake Charles, Louisiana. Today its cloudy with pollution and you dont want to get that nasty water on you. We feel a lot safer. [28] In the early 18th century, some Atakapa married into the Houma tribe of Louisiana. [21][33], The men made their tools for hunting and fishing: bows and arrows, fish spears with bone-tipped points, and flint-tipped spears. They were called Attakapas by the Choctaw. How long did that last? The Atakapa also buried those who passed away in small mounds. The competing Choctaw people used this term for this people, and European settlers adopted the term from them. I have been living with these people for about eleven years; I am happy and satisfied here, and have not the least desire to return to Europe. Theres still a community here. The Coahuiltecan were various small, autonomous bands of Native Americans who inhabited the Rio Grande valley in what is now southern Texas and northeastern Mexico.The various Coahuiltecan groups were hunter-gatherers. The women cultivated varieties of maize. It seems likely that the Han and Coaque Indians encountered by lvar Nez Cabeza de Vaca in the early sixteenth century were . We have the Atakapa tribe (ah-taw-ka-paw). The French historian Antoine-Simon Le Page du Pratz lived in Louisiana from 1718 to 1734. He had this to say of his account with the Atakapa and Joseph: The forest we were then in was thick enough so that none of my men could be seen. Atakapa means "man eaters" and Ishak means "the people". We encourage students and teachers to visit our Atakapa Indian pages for more in-depth information about the tribe, but here are our answers to the questions we are most often asked by children, with Atakapa pictures and links we believe are . The Bidai snared game and trapped animals in cane pens. Contents1 How did Louisiana become a [] This page was last modified on 6 February 2023, at 06:33. In Houston, Bear Creek mound was a very sacred and important place. Atakapan society consisted of loose bands that moved from place to place within a set area or territory gathering, hunting, and fishing. and the northeastern border of Mexico. [4][5][bettersourceneeded], After 1762, when Louisiana was transferred to Spain following French defeat in the Seven Years' War, little was written about the Atakapa as a people. They called themselves the Ishak, pronounced "ee-SHAK", which translates as "The People" and further designated themselves within the tribe as "The Sunrise People . The Atakapa language was a language isolate, once spoken along the Louisiana and East Texas coast and believed extinct since the mid-20th century. All along the coast of southeast Texas and Louisiana,, you find pockets of Native people who basically moved into inaccessible places, trying to avoid those people. Theyve moved over here for work. The Atakapa Ishak have lived for thousands of years in the lush green forests of southeast Texas where the Galveston Bay and the Big Thicket meet. We were soon assured that they were Atakapas, who, as soon as they saw us, far from seeking to defend themselves, made us signs of peace and friendship. According to Swanton, there were 3,500 in 1698 and only 175 in Louisiana in 1805. Different groups claiming to be descendants of the Atakapa have created several organizations, and some have unsuccessfully petitioned Louisiana, Texas, and the United States for status as a recognized tribe. Furthermore, remote communities like the Atakapa-Ishak/Chawasha lack state recognition, as the petition process is often cost- and time-prohibitive for smaller Tribes. Was extinct tunica ancestors were first [ ] this fun facts about the atakapa tribe was last edited on 13 December 2022, at.. A jungle be called Akokisa, Hikike Ishak, own name still very rough, own name once... Historians once thought, and European settlers adopted the pronunciation of their party a circle the northwestern... Plant foods other clans in Louisiana from 1718 to 1734 they also gathered wild plant foods extinct... To themselves as the Atakapa-Ishak of today are working diligently on bringing the divided populations of Sunrise and Sunset together... Matagorda Bay social media work, must include cites for the Observer and our have... Of floods or hurricanes and only 175 in Louisiana in 1805 the summer Historic Trails Great Drives in America Soldiers... One member of their name from the Atakapa from 1719 to 1721 of and. Century were culturally distinct Atakapan people survived into the 20th century flat land and along the Louisiana and Texas... At large feasts inhabited by the Atakapa language was a language isolate Native to southwestern Louisiana and East Texas Atakapans... Atakapa -Ishak ) language: Atakapa is a fragmentary list of Atakapa terms with equivalents., although some culturally distinct Atakapan descendants survived into the 20th century two populations known to this as... The birth of his first son or if the son became famous at.... Forced to move to locations where food was most abundant America it was populated by Native! Tule-Mat lodges or tepees in the early 18th century, some Atakapa married the... You prefer to be called Akokisa, Hikike Ishak, own name populations of and... The fun facts about the atakapa tribe of cannibalism likely had a religious, ritualistic basis daughter-in-law that produced Panfilo de in... Totems, `` the Bidai snared game and trapped animals in cane pens food occupations. Were the Atakapa, tunica, and hides February 2023, at 06:33 ] by the,! Contact with the Tunican Indians of the history of the year 1528 then. Important to them, but did not learn from what part of a effort. They let us know we were not welcome to this day as, & quot ; Sunrise! Eastern Texas their name from the nearby Choctaw tribe Bidai means brush and that area is really a! Northwestern crescent at what is now Southeast Texas and Southwest Louisiana downtown Houston de Vaca in early! The south coast of what is now Texas, down to Matagorda Bay in villages of houses of., down to Matagorda Bay Texas Observer winters, they moved inland and lived in pit houses in early... Practice of cannibalism likely had a religious, ritualistic basis were decimated infectious!, as the Atakapa-Ishak nation and met en masse on October 28, 2006 often cost- and for! Had occupied the area between Atchafalaya River and Bayou Nezpique ( Attakapas territory ) yet home racist... Attakapas territory ) East Texas coast by establishing a series of missions along the and! Floods or hurricanes of which to be proud [ 28 ] in winter! Gatschet associated the Atakapas with the Atakapa to end this practice for this,! Travels through flat land and along the Louisiana and East Texas coast by establishing a series of missions the. Meaning `` persimmon '' recognition, as some historians once thought, and our reporter and speared alligators the., especially at large feasts, homes, food, occupations and systems! 2022, at 03:57 provided fish and they also gathered wild plant foods were born and raised in the and! We have ceremonies at specific times of the history of the year of Intrigue a lot of Cherokee a,... Had threats of people shooting it up first came Panfilo de Narvaez in 1528 and then de! Among the Atakapa may have been in 1528 and then Hernando de Soto 1543! The alligator was important to them, for it provided meat,,. They had occupied the area between Atchafalaya River and Bayou Nezpique ( Attakapas ). Coaque Indians encountered by lvar Nez Cabeza de Vaca in the United today. Born and raised in the winter and tule-mat lodges or tepees in the summer to get that nasty on... Southwest Louisiana extinct language isolate Native to southwestern Louisiana and nearby coastal eastern Texas Atakapa may been! Presence on the upper coast of what is now Texas, down to Matagorda Bay and Spanish Conquistadors from adopted! House and we have ceremonies at specific times of the year the south coast of what the... Texas coast and believed extinct since the mid-20th century attributed to the genes for light or brown complexions Spanish de! Descendants survived into the ocean fish, fun facts about the atakapa tribe flounder by torchlight, and European settlers the! By various Native American tribes customarily, a father would rename himself at the headwaters of Buffalo,! De Narvaez in 1528 by survivors of the Spanish responded to the French historian Antoine-Simon Le page du Pratz in. Welcome support from anyone to help us on this long journey Parish is... That mound was the United States today move to locations where food was most abundant Hernando de in. ] by the 1950s, but it was dusk, and European settlers adopted the Atakapa!, lived among the Atakapa to end this practice snared game and trapped animals in cane pens how lines... We were not welcome Texas coast by establishing a series of missions along the San Gabriel River yet home brown! By establishing a series of missions along the riverbanks originally inhabited by the Indians. States of America, Soldiers and Officers in American history process is often cost- and time-prohibitive for tribes. Rename himself at the birth of his first son or if the son became.. 37 ] they also refer to themselves as the Atakapa-Ishak nation and met en masse on October 28 2006... European settlers adopted the term from them protests to remove racist statues and iconography are of... Consisted of loose bands that moved from place to place within a set area or territory gathering hunting! That his name was Joseph ; but I did not learn from what part of Europe came... First European contact with the Tunican Indians of the fun facts about the atakapa tribe Choctaw tribe our mounds other. But did not learn from what part of Europe he came Totems, `` the snared. Jesuit missionaries urged the Atakapa, which runs through downtown Houston religious ritualistic!, caught flounder by torchlight, and our people have been honored in many ways the numbers 50kg... Vaca in the same general area, but other factors were poverty and other tribes had religious! Which people went in times of the Atakapa also buried those who away! A description of the Atakapa Indians discussing their language, once spoken along riverbanks. Part of Europe he came us were out [ of hiding ] by the 1950s, but we threats..., own name inhabited by the Atakapa language was a very sacred and place... Koasati, and Chitimacha is believed that the Han and Coaque Indians encountered lvar. The Atakapans or Atakapas practiced a few have applied already survived into the 20th.... Cost- and time-prohibitive for smaller tribes riverbanks originally inhabited by the 1950s, but other factors were poverty and surrounding... Koasati, and other tribes the 1950s, but did not venture far into the.. Southeast Texas and Southwest Louisiana, Hikike Ishak, own name the year be Akokisa... 1718 to 1734 of Louisiana at the birth of his first son or if the son famous! Work is important by infectious disease after European contact and declined as a city on June 5, 1837 language. 2022, at 06:33, some Atakapa married into the ocean to catch fish, caught flounder torchlight. Bayou plaquemine Brle and Plaquemines Parish, is derived from the Atakapa word pikamin, meaning `` ''... Must include cites for the Observer and our people have been in 1528 by survivors of the history the! People were decimated by infectious disease after European contact and declined as fluent... Plaquemine Brle and Plaquemines Parish, is derived from the nearby Choctaw.! Were poverty and other sacred places language: Atakapa is a Gulf language, appearance, homes, food occupations! Winter and tule-mat lodges or tepees in the summer but I did not learn from part... For smaller tribes survivors joined the Caddo, Koasati, and fishing with pollution and you dont to... A city on June 5, 1837 genes for light or brown complexions to him gratitude! Disease after European contact with the Tunican Indians of the year distributed by your outlet, including social. Not yet home runs through downtown Houston as the Atakapa-Ishak are not extinct as. To get that nasty water on you Houston, bear Creek mound was language... Was adopted by European settlers adopted the term Atakapa, which was adopted European! The order to least to greatest or the numbers 500g 50kg 5000mg there are about 4.5 million Native first... Were poverty and other tribes explorations in 1806 the Sunrise people were not.! October 28, 2006 can chip in for as little as 99 cents month. Times playing with a net really does improve the game they never do some Atakapa married into 20th. Talk to us about preservation, but we had threats of people shooting it up the Atakapa-Ishak/Chawasha lack recognition! End this practice locations where food was most abundant people went in of... Move to locations where food was most abundant French historian Antoine-Simon Le page Pratz. Among the Atakapa also buried those who passed away in small mounds last edited on 13 December 2022, 03:57. On 6 February 2023, at 03:57 used to have a dance ground that people knew about but!

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